About war and sex work in Ukraine with Natalia Shestak from Rivne

WE CONTINUE OUR SERIES OF INTERVIEWS ABOUT WAR AND SEX WORK. Almost a year has passed since the last public conversation with our regional representatives. Back then, we talked about the impact of the war on the lives of Ukrainians, the fate of sex workers and the sex work in Ukraine. Today, we decided to return to this conversation and to analyse what has changed over time and what remains the same.

Today we are publishing an interview with Natalia Shestak, the leader of the initiative group of sex workers of CO ‘Legalife-Ukraine’ in Rivne town.

Natalia Dorofeeva (ND), CO “Legalife-Ukraine”: This is the first time we are doing an interview with you for our website, so I propose to start this conversation with your personal story. Tell us a little bit about yourself, your childhood, education, etc.

Natalia Shestak (NS): I was born in Rivne, in an ordinary family: my mother was a seamstress, and my father - I don’t even remember what his job title was. I remember that he was always travelling on business trips.

I also went to a regular school, in a sports class, and played basketball.

I was an ordinary child - like everyone else, I took a comb and sang into it, because I imagined that I was a singer. I dreamed of performing on stage, of being famous. Perhaps many children dream of this. I used to go to the swimming pool.

I can’t say that my childhood dreams came true. Because I was offered to go to Kyiv and develop in sports, but my mother did not allow me to, so I stayed. This is probably the biggest thing I regret.

After school, I studied in a ‘bursa’ - I don’t really want to talk about it - student years are not a time to brag about, although there is a lot to remember. It has its own stories and they will take a lot of time - there was booze, drugs, and what not. This is a time that was both fun and not something to be proud of.

ND: Then let’s move on to your adult life, how did it develop after graduation, what did you do? How did you end up at CO ‘Legalife-Ukraine’?

NS: After graduation, I stayed at home - family, children, some problems of my own. After a while, I got Botkin’s disease, and during treatment I was diagnosed with HIV. It was a blow to me. One of the hospital staff told my daughter about my diagnosis. It was terrible - at that time, the attitude towards the infected was not tolerant.

After that, I went to the HIV/AIDS centre to receive treatment and was offered a job there. Before that, I hadn’t worked anywhere, I was doing some part-time jobs - I was an entrepreneur, I was selling something at the market, etc.

So, the AIDS centre offered me a job working with girls from the sex industry. This led to my acquaintance with the organisation - the name was different then - ‘Legalife League’. Later, organisational changes and rebranding took place, and the organisation I work for now was named CO ‘Legalife-Ukraine’.

In 2013, we worked on a project to protect sex workers - we travelled to different places and recorded human rights violations by law enforcement officers, and the same project was carried out in 2015 - we even went to Budapest, Hungary, for training.

ND: Why did you decide to work in this particular area, and what influenced your decision?

NS: I used to use drugs myself and I am HIV-positive, I have seen how people like me are treated. I wanted to know how to protect myself, and then I wanted to help someone else, because I am not the only one with this diagnosis in this world. It was the violation of my rights to confidentiality and intolerant attitude towards me in the hospital, that became the starting point for me to start doing this work. Although, who knows what would have happened if I hadn’t been offered a job at the AIDS centre?

ND: How did your family react to the fact that you would be defending the rights of sex workers?

NS: At that time I had a husband. He was very happy that I was going to work and help someone. He supported me in this.

ND: After many years of working with Legalife, can you share what you like about your job and what is the most difficult part?

NS: This is a difficult question, to be honest. On the one hand, I really like that I can help someone. I really like my team and the attitude of the management - they don’t look down on me, as is the case in other places of work - they will always help. It makes me very happy.

In the photo: Meeting as part of a technical visit of the leaders of CO ‘Legalife-Ukraine’ in Rivne

As for the difficult ones, I think there are hardly any. Because any problem that can be solved within 20 minutes is not a problem.

Although, no, there is something - it is sometimes very difficult to get the girls under my care together. And I don’t even remember something like that. I love my job, I love what I do.

Oh, I remember one incident. One of the wards went to a client and they didn’t want to let her go, I had to go by taxi to save her.  Such cases are difficult, because you understand that there may be violence, you feel responsible for the person, and the situation itself is quite scary. This is probably the most difficult thing - you don’t know whether you will save the person, whether they will let them go, and whether you will be safe.

ND: After such incidents, don’t you ever think about leaving for a safer job?

NS: No, I have not had such thoughts. I will repeat: I like my job, I like communicating with people and helping them. And at the same time, when I do what I do, I learn every time - I learn something new every time.

ND: Many of the leaders say that work takes up all their time, but what about you, do you find free time for yourself? How do you take a break from work?

NS: I used to do embroidery. Now, in my free time, I hang out with girls, look for interesting things on social media, watch films I like. But, in general, my whole life is connected with work - I can’t imagine doing anything else.

ND: Let’s move on from the personal things to the problems of the community in Rivne. After almost three years of war, what changes do you see in the life of the community and in the sex work market?

NS: Many people went abroad, and only some of them returned. Many girls with regular clients sit in front of cameras on their phones. Before the war, their earnings were higher, but now the demand for sex workers has significantly decreased.

The girls stopped going out in search of customers, as they did before the war, except maybe in a few isolated cases. Before the war, they used to stand at petrol stations, or rather near them, but now you don’t see that anymore. And it’s scary to stand there now - shelling, sirens and all that, it also affects earnings, because it’s virtually impossible to work with clients in such conditions. More and more people are using the telephone and online - friends find us through friends, through recommendations. And so on.

Changes are also taking place in the personal lives of the SWs.  For some, family relationships have improved, while for others they have deteriorated, because, for example, men are irritated by lower earnings, etc.

ND: The lower the earnings, the more likely it is that they are forced to accept health-risk behaviours, such as having sex without a condom or other practices. Do girls talk about this?

NS: I can’t remember girls talking about something that would be risky for them. There were some isolated cases, like ‘Let me just hold your shoe or let’s just talk’, but for something like that (risky) - I have not heard such a thing from them.  Perhaps they don’t want to talk about it, and that’s possible.

ND: This war has reduced revenues and increased health risks for SWs. Does this force them to leave sex work and look for other sources of income?

NS: SWs do leave sex work, but for other reasons, the main one being marriage. But this is rare. And even then, even in married status, they can continue to provide sex services over the phone. But the war did not affect this in any way - it was like that before, and it is like that now.

ND: In general, what is the situation with employment in Rivne? Perhaps women are simply forced to engage in sex work after this war started due to the lack of other opportunities?

NS: There is actually enough work in our city, but prices are rising, and salaries are not. There are women who lose their income for various reasons and can’t think of any other way as to start providing sexual services. So sometimes it happens that women start doing this business. Some of them do it as if temporarily to survive in the moment, or to pay the rent there, and there are those who stay for a long time.  There are girls who earn money for drugs in this way. There are IDP women, but I can’t talk about many of them, although I know a few IDPs.

ND: Earlier you said that the number of customers has decreased, but they still exist. According to your observations, how changed with the war and the crisis some categories of customers?

NS: As for the category of clients, it is, of course, the military, but who is not in the military now? Even those who were regular customers and worked as, say, a drivers, can now easily become military personnel. So I think this is a natural phenomenon, especially in times of war. Prices have risen a little bit, I won’t say that they have gone up by a lot, and I don’t want to lie about how much, but in general I can say for sure that they have increased. And the price is higher for the military, because they have good salaries, so they can pay more.

ND: Nataliia, you have been working with SWs for many years and you know their needs well, so tell us, with what problems do SWs come to you most often now?

NS: The main one is violence. Economic and physical security issues are also relevant. Girls complain that it is their husbands who harass them - drunken ‘halves’ send their wives to work. One girl’s husband was so thirsty that he would steal everything from the house, even take off the child’s gold earrings, and take away child benefits. In such families, there is both physical violence and psychological pressure.

Girls often complain about their clients, especially among the military. I remember one of the girls telling me about a client who had been injured - he was rude and tried to fight. There was a case when a man pulled out a gun and started shooting in different directions.

There are also legal needs - there were several cases when girls came and complained about gynaecologists because they did not want to examine them, knowing about the patient’s profession. There have been such cases. So far, we don’t have a friendly doctor here.

ND: Do you think these women have the ability to solve such problems on their own, without your help?

NS: To be honest, they don’t even try to solve anything on their own, because they don’t see the point of going anywhere - the attitude towards sex workers is not very good, to put it mildly. We don’t have a lawyer on site. They try to call me if there are any questions, but they themselves will not be able to do something for themselves. If I myself can solve something for them - I do, but if not - I call friendly organizations.

For example, recently there was a case when a woman had domestic violence in her family and needed to be placed either in a crisis room or in a shelter. She didn’t even try to solve the problem herself, she just called me.  I think that this girls immediately turn to me only because they do not believe that they can be helped if they do not turn to me, but directly themselves.

ND: Tell us more about the assistance you provide to SWs of Ukraine as the leader of the initiative group.

NS: I’ll start with the humanitarian program - we have been running an active project from the ActionAid Foundation for two years now, where we are able to support girls with food, hygiene kits and other things.

I try to distribute this food in such a way that all my wards have enough, but for example, I have several families with five children, so I give it to them first. I have one girl who is pregnant again, for the sixth time, so she and her children need something to eat. By the way, she is an IDP. She doesn’t have a place to live, so what should they do? To die?

We also gave out sheets, hygiene kits, thermal mugs and power banks - these are for blackouts. Sometimes we give out medicines and contraceptives - we do our best to improve the living conditions of our clients.

Then there is paralegal assistance - recently, one of the girls asked us to help her to draw up an application and fill in the documents. And this happens quite often, many women ask for help with documents, which can be quite difficult for them. I also recall a case that happened just a few days ago: a woman asked for help in drafting an appeal. I did some of it myself, and then referred her to our lawyer at Legalife-Ukraine for the rest of the work.

Consultations and support are a regular occurrence for me. I consult even in the evening, and often by phone. I accompany girls to medical examinations, to lawyers or anywhere else where they may feel insecure.

In a word, I am in constant, round-the-clock contact with my clients and, if necessary, I tell them and teach them everything I know.

As for our information sessions, it’s already a tradition, because we hold them every week. The topics vary. I can invite a craftswoman to make wax candles or to make homemade soap. Sometimes I give them a lecture on medical issues. When the weather is good, we gather outside in the park or at the Lebedynka - it’s such a beautiful location in the centre of Rivne. And if the weather is bad, we go to friendly organisations’ offices. My girls love such events, but it’s often quite difficult to arrange them - one of them can’t make it, the other is busy, or something has happened.

ND: And what about partners? Is there anyone in Rivne, apart from you and Legalife, who helps SWs to solve these problems?

NS: We have several organisations that are focused on humanity and improving the quality of life of people, regardless of their level and status.

I like our cooperation with the “100 Percent Life Network Rivne”, which is a patient organisation that works on a peer-to-peer basis. They allow us to hold information sessions at their office, to have a crisis room and a shelter, and they take girls in if they have domestic violence and help them with food packages or medical consultations.

In the photo: Meeting with human rights activist Yevhen Novitsky (Євгеній Новицький) of the 100 Percent Life Network.

Recently, I started working with the organisation «Nashe Budyvnitstvo» («Наше будівництво»), which runs preventive campaigns - they distribute contraceptives and lubricants, talk about ways of spreading venereal diseases, and advise on safe sexual behaviour.

There is another cool organisation, the CO ‘Positive Women of Rivne’ - together we implement some projects that apply to sex workers living with HIV, among others. Most often, it is counselling and humanitarian aid to support women.

In the photo: Meeting with a representative of the Mobile Brigade of the Centre for Social and Psychological Assistance to Victims of Domestic Violence

I also sometimes turn to the Mobile Brigade for Social and Psychological Assistance. They also help women who have suffered from violence.

In the photo: Meeting with representatives of the AIDS centre.

ND: It’s nice to hear about your NGO partner network. What about business organisations? In your opinion, is it possible today to negotiate assistance for the SWs from individuals, entrepreneurs or large businesses?

NS: I think it is unlikely. To begin with, the attitude of businessmen towards people in general is not very good. Not to mention that the reaction to the phrase ‘help for sex workers’ is, simply put, not very good at all. I find it hard to believe, especially since I once heard from a businessman: ‘Don’t they make enough money there?’

And let’s face it - entrepreneurs, in general, don’t like to share. On the other hand, we are at war in our country, and the first task today is to help the army, so it is unlikely that private entrepreneurs will think about the fate of SWs.

ND: Natalia, as a pioneer in the protection of sex workers, what advice do you have for aspiring activists?

NS: Don’t be afraid and be human. This is the most important thing. You should always remember that there is a person opposite you who has needs, who feels pain, hunger, cold.

Opposite you is a human being. When you remember this, when you realise this, when you feel compassion, love, no matter how trite it may sound for your neighbour, your attitude to the world will change. This is the first thing.

And it is equally important to study. You need to research the topic in detail, study the issue from different angles, because what kind of assistant will you be if you yourself are ‘shallow’ in the subject matter of the question? Continuous development and self-development is our “everything”.

And be patient. Being patient is no less important than anything else - the work of an activist involves a lot of communication with people, and people are different, everyone has their own quirks.  Therefore, patience is one of the keys to success.

ND: How do you see the future of sex worker community in Ukraine? What will make sex workers’ lives safer and better?

NS: My hope is that the law on decriminalisation of sex work in Ukraine will be passed. Girls need to feel that their work is protected by law, that they can pay taxes, receive legitimate income, get seniority, a pension, medical guarantees, and protection of their rights. Why not?

How is this work different from, say, working in a cafe? After all, sex is as basic instinct as eating. It is written at the genetic level in people, and if there is demand, and there will be demand, there will be supply. So why not decriminalize sex work and not only protect sex workers at the state level, but also improve the economic situation of local budgets or the state treasury? I think such a decision by lawmakers would help like nothing else.

Interview by Natalia Dorofeeva, CO “Legalife-Ukraine”